In 1994, actor Charlize Theron was just starting out in show business when a famous director invited her to an audition at his home. When she showed up, she found the director drinking and in his pajamas. He touched her leg; she apologized and left in a hurry.
Driving away, Theron became angry — with herself: "I just kept hitting the steering wheel," she says. "I put a lot of blame on myself ... that I didn't say all the right things, and that I didn't tell him to take a hike, and that I didn't do all of those things that we so want to believe we'll do in those situations."
It wasn't until years later that Theron understood her experience as sexual harassment. It's a subject that she's taking on in her latest film, Bombshell, which follows the women of Fox News who came forward to accuse then-CEO and chairman Roger Ailes of sexual harassment. Theron is one of the film's producers and also plays former Fox News host Megyn Kelly, who wrote about Ailes' unwanted sexual advances in her 2016 book, Settle for More.
Theron says she felt conflicted about playing Kelly: "We have different points of view on a lot of issues," she says. "And she has definitely said things in the past that I took issue with."
Nevertheless, Theron embraced the opportunity to explore what she calls the "gray area" of sexual harassment: "It's not always physical assault. It's not always rape," she says. "There's a psychological damage that happens for women in the everyday casualness of language, touch or threat — threat of losing your job. Those are things I've definitely encountered."
On the movie's portrayal of the women who worked for Fox News
A lot of these women have been somewhat hypocritical when it comes to sexual harassment, and have made statements about sexual harassment that have not necessarily been about really bettering the workplace for women or just for women in general. ... We weren't trying to make them heroes. We weren't trying to whitewash all of the things that they have said in the past. We were going to pepper those things into the film so that we were authentic to them and the story and still feel like, through all of that, that what they did was still incredible. They took down this media mogul, and that has never happened before.
On confronting the director who sexually harassed her years later — and it being unsatisfying
In sexual harassment, you're always waiting for that moment where there's full closure, where you feel like you've actually ... had your moment, where you get to say your piece. And that never really happens. I've heard this repeatedly in hearing other women's stories, and that is the unfortunate thing about sexual harassment. You never get that moment where you feel like the tables are reversed and now he's finally getting it.
The closest we've ever gotten to it is seeing people like Roger Ailes or Harvey Weinstein seeing some real consequences. I've never seen that in my entire career. This is really the first moment in my life where I see that maybe there can be real consequences for people with these actions.
On why the name of the director who harassed her hasn't been made public
I actually did disclose his name. You don't know that because every time I disclosed his name, the journalist made the decision to not write his name, and it goes to show just how deeply systemic this problem is.
I remember the first time somebody asked me if I ever had a casting couch experience, and I openly shared the experience and named him, and the person decided to not write his name. So the story is out, and strangely, when the Harvey Weinstein story broke, I, for the first time ever, Googled the story and the story came up everywhere. It popped up everywhere, and nowhere could you find this guy's name. And it was incredibly upsetting to me.
I'm conflicted in the sense that I know that, if I said his name again while I'm promoting this film, that it would take over the importance of this story and that would become the story. I think there will be a time and a place where I will definitely share this. ... I've always been honest about it. I don't have a desire to protect him, but I also don't want him to overshadow this film right now. So there will be a right time where I will talk about this again, and I will say his name, yes.
On growing up in apartheid-era South Africa and what she was taught in school about race
On our farm, all of the workers, everybody who worked in the company — and it was a pretty substantial company — all lived on the farm. So my whole childhood, I was raised with Xhosas and Zulus and South Sothos and all different cultures. Their children were raised with me on the property and I consider them my family. ... It was only until I was 12 or 13 that I went to an art school in Johannesburg where I really got to witness firsthand absolutely the atrocities of apartheid. ...
History was leaning very much into our white history. The heroes of our story, of our founding fathers, were all white. That was really the story that we were all told. ... This climate that we're in right now with our polarizing political views in this country, it was very similar in South Africa. I had friends whose father would be for apartheid and once they found out that black people lived on our farm wouldn't let me come over for a sleepover. ...
I always wonder what my life would have been like if I grew up in one of those families — if I was just an innocent child who was born into the family, like one of my friends, who believed that apartheid was the right way of life. I was just incredibly blessed that I was raised ... by a mother who was just aghast by all of this.
I didn't really truly understand what any of this really did to me as a young child until I was in my mid-30s and I went to therapy for the first time, because of a relationship that was failing. And what I discovered while in therapy, trying to save my relationship, was that I had a lot of trauma from being a young child growing up in South Africa during the apartheid era. ...
[It's] a lot to reconcile with when you realize that you benefited under an administration, a nation, a country, because you had the "right" skin color. I benefited. My life was more comfortable because of the suffering of a lot of people who just by chance were born in the "wrong" skin color. That was a lot for me to carry; it still is. It's something that I'll carry for the rest of my life.
On her mother killing her father in self-defense
My father was a very sick man. My father was an alcoholic all my life. I only knew him one way, and that was as an alcoholic. ... It was a pretty hopeless situation. Our family was just kind of stuck in it. And the day-to-day unpredictability of living with an addict is the thing that you sit with and have kind of embedded in your body for the rest of your life, more than just this one event of what happened one night. I think our family was an incredibly unhealthy one. And all of it, I think, scarred us in a way. Of course, I wish what happened that night would have never happened. It's unfortunately what happens when you don't get to the root of these issues.
My father was so drunk that he shouldn't have been able to walk when he came into the house with a gun. My mom and I were in my bedroom leaning against the door, because he was trying to push through the door. So both of us were leaning against the door from the inside to have him not be able to push through. He took a step back and just shot through the door three times. None of those bullets ever hit us, which is just a miracle. But in self-defense, she ended the threat.
This family violence, this kind of violence that happens within the family, is something that I share with a lot of people. I'm not ashamed to talk about it, because I do think that the more we talk about these things, the more we realize we are not alone in any of it. I think, for me, it's just always been that this story really is about growing up with addicts and what that does to a person.
On her decision to adopt as a single parent
I cast a very wide net. I wanted to believe that somehow my child would find me in the way that we were just meant to be. So I wasn't specific with anything. ... In whatever country they would allow me as a single woman to adopt, that's where I filed. And it just happened to be that both my children ended up being American. They were born in the United States and they both happened to be African American. Everything that I hoped would happen during my adoption process did happen because these two babies were meant to be in my life — and they're my children. ...
It's definitely something that we still need to work on, this concept of what a family looks like and what constitutes the "right" family or a "strong" family or what we think that should look like. In a lot of places — and I think even for a lot of people and in America — it still feels very traditional in the sense that it should be that every child should have a mother and a father. We've kind of wrapped our heads slowly around the idea of two mothers and two fathers, but not so much around the idea of a single parent. It's just so unfortunate. I know so many people who would be incredible parents. My fight was a little bit easier because of my circumstances, but I would want that for all women who want to share their life and be part of raising another young, small child's life.
Heidi Saman and Joel Wolfram produced and edited this interview for broadcast. Bridget Bentz, Molly Seavy-Nesper and Patrick Jarenwattananon adapted it for the Web.
TERRY GROSS, HOST:
This is FRESH AIR. I'm Terry GROSS. My guest, Charlize Theron, plays Megyn Kelly in the new film "Bombshell." It's based on the story of how Fox News host Gretchen Carlson sued Roger Ailes in July 2016 for sexually harassing her. Within days, Megyn Kelly, who was then a Fox News host, and several other women at Fox came forward with their stories about Ailes. A couple of weeks after Carlson filed her lawsuit, Ailes was forced to resign from his positions as chairman and CEO of Fox News. Carlson is portrayed by Nicole Kidman in the film. John Lithgow plays Ailes. Some of the characters in the film are fictional. Theron is one of the producers of the film.
She grew up on a farm in South Africa during the apartheid era. In her late teens, she came to New York and studied at the Joffrey School of Ballet. After injuries put an end to her dream of becoming a ballerina, she turned to acting. In 2003, she won an Oscar for her starring role in "Monster" as a prostitute and serial killer. In the post-apocalyptic action film "Mad Max: Fury Road," she played Furiosa, who rescues young women from the villain who's keeping them as slaves for breeding children. In "Young Adult," she played an author of popular young adult novels who's in her 30s but has the emotional maturity of a teenager. In the film "Tully," her character was overcome by postpartum depression.
Let's start with a clip from "Bombshell." This is just after Gretchen Carlson has sued Ailes, alleging she was fired from her program for refusing Ailes' sexual advances, which he denied at the time. Megyn Kelly is talking with people who work on her show, who are reading tweets about Carlson's allegation, including this tweet from Fox News' Brit Hume.
(SOUNDBITE OF FILM, "BOMBSHELL")
UNIDENTIFIED ACTOR #1: (As character, reading) Why didn't Gretchen quit and sue instead of suing only after she got fired? Why didn't she complain?
CHARLIZE THERON: (As Megyn Kelly) Why didn't she complain? Really?
UNIDENTIFIED ACTOR #2: (As character) He means the anonymous hotline
CHARLIZE THERON AND UNIDENTIFIED ACTOR #1: (As Megyn Kelly and character) There's a hotline?
UNIDENTIFIED ACTOR #2: (As character) Yeah.
UNIDENTIFIED ACTOR #1: (As character) I did the harassment seminar twice. I never heard about a hotline.
THERON: (As Megyn Kelly) They have a contractual right to monitor our communications. A hotline in this building is like a complaint box in occupied Paris. It's like we're telling women, go on, speak up for yourself, just know the entire network is with Roger. No one will believe you. They'll call you a liar. Oh, and as for your career, you want assignments and airtime? Go ahead - call the paranoid man who decides your salary a pervert and do that on a [expletive] anonymous hotline he controls on a phone he has a contractual right to record. Do you think women are idiots? It's like somebody stripped you naked and they want you to walk through this office just to [expletive] prove it.
UNIDENTIFIED ACTOR #2: (As character) OK. Can I see you for a minute?
GROSS: Charlize Theron, welcome to FRESH AIR and congratulations on your performance in the film. I'm guessing you're pretty conflicted about Megyn Kelly and her role in, you know, political culture. On the one hand, I'm sure you admire her for speaking out about Roger Ailes; on the other hand, I would imagine you disagree with her politics. So what was it like for you to play her with that kind of conflict in mind?
THERON: Yes, you're very correct in that statement. We're very different women. We have different, I think, points of view on a lot of issues. And she has definitely said things in the past that I've had issue with, that I took issue with. But the focus really was to tell the story of what these women at Fox - I mean, I think the cast of characters are so unusual, that this story came from that world, from them. A lot of these women have been somewhat hypocritical when it comes to sexual harassment and have made statements about sexual harassment that have not necessarily been about, really, bettering the workplace for women or just for women in general. All of that was so unusual for me.
But that really was the importance of the film and why I think we wanted to make it. And once I zeroed in on that and I found space in the film for us to show Megyn with some of those issues, I felt like that was a true representation of not just her but I think of the world of Fox and what they kind of send out into the world.
GROSS: You get Megyn Kelly's voice, I think, perfectly. And so let's hear her speak for a minute. And this is from, like, her most famous broadcast moment, in 2015 during the first Republican presidential debate that was hosted by Fox News, and she asked a now famous, challenging question to candidate Trump that led him to tweet after very disparaging things about her, including that she had blood coming out of her wherever. So here's Megyn Kelly asking a question to Trump at the debate.
(SOUNDBITE OF ARCHIVED RECORDING)
MEGYN KELLY: You've called women you don't like fat pigs, dogs, slobs and disgusting animals. Your Twitter account lists several...
PRESIDENT DONALD TRUMP: Only Rosie O'Donnell.
KELLY: No, it wasn't.
TRUMP: Thank you.
KELLY: For the record, it was well beyond Rosie O'Donnell.
TRUMP: Yes, I'm sure it was.
KELLY: Your Twitter account has several disparaging comments about women's looks. You once told a contestant on "Celebrity Apprentice" it would be a pretty picture to see her on her knees. Does that sound to you like the temperament of a man we should elect as president? And how will you answer the charge from Hillary Clinton, who is likely to be the Democratic nominee, that you are part of the war on women?
GROSS: OK, that was Megyn Kelly in 2015. I have to say - and I talked to Megyn Kelly about this when I interviewed her - it's just chilling to hear the audience kind of applauding when he's mocking Rosie O'Donnell and kind of mocking the whole idea of, you know, disparaging women.
GROSS: Anyways, what I wanted you to be listening for is her voice so that you could tell us what you hear when you hear her voice that you knew you wanted to pick up on in portraying her.
THERON: Her voice is very distinctive. She speaks in this very deep register. I sound - like, I have a deep voice today, but it's because I'm a little under the weather. I actually don't have a very deep register, and so that was a very difficult thing to kind of get as low as she goes. I actually stressed my vocal chords so much that I couldn't speak for three weeks in pre production. You know...
GROSS: So this was just - what? - in rehearsing you stressed your voice.
KELLY: Yeah. Yeah, just practicing her sounds. And I worked with this incredible woman, Carla Meyer, here in Los Angeles, and she helped me with her speech patterns. And with her, what I had noticed was that - well, one thing she talks about in her book is that one of the best pieces of advice that she got from Roger Ailes was that he told her that she spoke too fast and for her to really slow down when she was on air and pronounce, announce and be a newscaster. And so when you watch her on "The Kelly File," as she starts a show, she starts every - with every word, she's underlining every single word. It's really interesting.
And then when she goes off script - say, she has somebody on the show and they're having a conversation and, you know, she feels strongly about making a point - she goes back into this Megyn Kelly speed, which is just insane. I mean, she speaks at a speed that is unbelievable and was, at moments, incredibly hard for me to even try and get close to. But I think it was a good way for me to understand that when she felt emotional about something, that was her natural place, where she went. And the newscaster in her was very specific, to wanting to be taken seriously, wanting to always remind the audience that she spoke from a place of authority, knowledge. She was always quick to remind people that she was a lawyer. And I think her...
GROSS: You know, she in the movie - you say in the movie, like, to Roger Ailes, I'm not a feminist; I'm a lawyer.
THERON: Yeah. I mean, listen - she made quite a meal out of that. She has said it numerous times. She really rebuttals the idea that anybody thinks that she is a feminist. She has, I think, said the word feminist to her feels that it just causes this kind of divide and separation, which to me is just so crazy to think of somebody like her thinking of the word feminist or being a feminist or feminism in that way. But she just despised the word and always kind of brought it back to, no, I'm an intellectual. I want the world to know that I'm an intellectual.
GROSS: So how did you decide whether to use Megyn Kelly in that now famous soundbite that we just heard or whether you wanted to do it yourself, and ditto with her comment on her show on Fox News in which she reassured children that Santa Claus is white?
THERON: So originally when - in the script, it was written that that would be real footage, that we would cut - and the movie does this, I think, really seamlessly. We cut from a lot of real footage to our actors in the film. And I threw it out as an idea to Jay Roach and to Charles Randolph, our screenwriter, that I would like to have a shot at it; I would like to try and do it myself. And I'm really grateful that he gave me the shot.
I mean, I worked really hard at it. And that was one of the one times in the film that I really tried to mimic it down exactly to her speed, to her cadence, to every single sound of how she went about that. Outside of that, I tried to have it be more emotionally informed, but that one I really tried to mimic exactly what she did.
GROSS: So you didn't want people looking at the screen and comparing Megyn Kelly with you in the same movie?
THERON: Yeah. I mean, I also didn't want to take away from something that I think - you know, with everything that I've said about Megyn Kelly earlier, I have to say, I mean, that was one of those moments where I had to take a step back and just acknowledge that what she did that day was pretty impressive.
GROSS: That was a great question (laughter).
THERON: It was a great question. And she held her own. And the fact that she was brave enough to go after him that way - I think she's had several moments like that where I really acknowledge that she is incredibly good at what she does.
GROSS: So let's talk about looking like Megyn Kelly. I mean, the decision was made in the film to use prosthetics for several of the characters - for you, for Nicole Kidman as Gretchen Carlson and for John Lithgow as Roger Ailes. Can you talk about the decision to go with prosthetics?
THERON: It was a decision that I felt very strongly about. And I have not done a lot of prosthetics in my career. I think a lot of people think I did prosthetics on "Monster," and I didn't. We used absolutely no prosthetics on that film. So my prosthetic experience has been really small. But I felt strongly about it in this case because I - every time I would read the lines in the script, I would - and I would look in a mirror, it just never felt like I fully believed that you would completely forget. It just - I think it was a selfish reason. I wanted to do it for myself. I wanted to be able to lose myself in a way where I don't think I've ever done anything like that before.
And it's tricky because obviously I had very little experience in it. And we realized pretty quickly that a lot of the prosthetics work that would be helpful in this transformation were concentrated around the eyes, which for an actor is really frightening because we really utilize our eyes or that area a lot in just telling silent expression. And so outside of contact lenses, I wore two prosthetic pieces from my eyelash line all the way up to my eyebrow line. And it...
GROSS: To make your eyes smaller.
THERON: It's not so much smaller. She - I have a natural, quite wide bed on my eyelid, where she doesn't. Her upper lid is much heavier and lays very low on her bottom lid, and it really changes her eye shape. And once we did that, I mean, it became very clear; it was evident that we - that was the way to go. But it also - you know, I had to spend some time with it because it really put a lot of weight on my eyes.
And it was just thinking about, well, OK, day after day of glue around your eyes and lenses in your eyes and getting dry eye and all of those chemicals and removing them and if you don't apply them right, you have to take them off again. And there were, in the beginning, the first few days that we had an issue with the eyelid being glued so tight that I couldn't actually blink (laughter). And then there were other times where we glued it a little too loose, where I couldn't - my eyelid couldn't open up. It's very, very intricate.
GROSS: Well, let's take a short break here, and then we'll talk some more. If you're just joining us, my guest is Charlize Theron, and she's starring as Megyn Kelly in the new film "Bombshell." We'll be right back. This is FRESH AIR.
(SOUNDBITE OF MUSIC)
GROSS: This is FRESH AIR. And if you're just joining us, my guest is Charlize Theron, and she stars in the new movie "Bombshell" as Megyn Kelly. And the movie is about how Gretchen Carlson came forward and sued Roger Ailes for sexual harassment. Then several other women at Fox News, including Megyn Kelly, came forward, leading to Ailes being forced out of his position as chairman and CEO of Fox News.
You've talked about in other interviews how your first audition ended up being with a sexual harasser. It was, like - you were told by, I think, like, a modeling agency who knew that you wanted to act, they suggested you go on this audition. It was a Saturday evening that you were supposed to meet the producer or director...
THERON: Yeah. Director, yeah.
GROSS: ...At his home. He opened the door, and he was wearing pajamas and had been drinking.
GROSS: So this was before today's level of public awareness. This was before the #MeToo movement. It was before you had any reason to expect that it would be not the harasser who face consequences, but you if you went public about it.
GROSS: So can you describe what it was like to have to react on the spot when you saw the position he was in in his pajamas, and then instead of having you, like, read for your audition, he touched your knee? How do you know what to do in that moment?
THERON: You don't. You don't. And I think for people who have not experienced sexual harassment, it's a very difficult thing to wrap their head around. A woman yesterday - we were doing a press junket - and a female general journalist said to me, but don't you always have the option of just saying no and leaving the room?
And I think that is a mentality that a lot of people still have about sexual harassment, that somehow when you find yourself in that position, that very unfortunate position, that you are going to do everything right. You're going to say everything right. You're going to be the hero in that scene. And you're going to tell this guy exactly what a creep he is and you're going to march off into the sunset. And that is just not the truth about a lot of these situations.
And I've personally found myself - this happened in '94 - I personally found myself in a situation where I wasn't even fully convinced that it was sexual harassment. And I don't think I really knew that until way later in my career. But what I did know was that I put a lot of blame on myself in the sense that I was angry with myself that I didn't say all the right things and that I didn't tell him to, you know, take a hike, and that I didn't do all of those things that we so want to believe we'll do in those situations. Instead, I very politely apologized. And then I was in my car driving away. And I just kept hitting the steering wheel.
And I was really emotional about it because I couldn't understand where this behavior came from. I was raised with an incredibly strong mother figure - my mother, who, you know, I grew up watching her work in a business where women weren't allowed to work. She worked in road construction at a time when no women worked in road construction. And my whole life, all I saw was men coming into her office and having meetings with her. And so my impression of the world was that that was just what you did.
And so nothing in my past made me feel like, well, then, of course this is why I would apologize and why I would kind of react in this meek way with this guy and not say anything. I didn't know where that came from. And it took me a really long time to realize that that was a cultural influence, that it wasn't necessarily from how I was raised. But it was almost like instilled in me that that's just kind of what you did. You didn't rock the boat. This was somebody who was going to maybe give you a job.
I was just starting out in the industry. I didn't really know the ins and outs. I literally was telling myself as I was driving there on a Saturday night at 9 o'clock, well, maybe that's how they do it in the movie industry. I don't know. I've never done this.
GROSS: He's a busy man. Maybe his time is - right. That's the only time he has. So when you apologized to him, what did you say? Do you remember?
THERON: I don't even think it was like a specific apology. But I remember saying I'm sorry when I was trying to leave and that I made it - like, the apology about I'm sorry that I have to leave because I was trying to remove myself from the room. And that, in itself, is just so unbelievably F'd (ph) up. I - you know, that is a mentality that we have to really change within our culture, within our girls. And yeah. I mean, I had a very interesting experience with this man eight years later, where he actually offered me a job. And he is a very well-known director.
And eight years later, I was - found myself in a place in my career where I was actually getting offers. And he offered me a job. And I knew I wasn't going to take the job. But I took the meeting because I felt like I finally had my opportunity. I wanted to have that moment that I didn't get to have with him. And his producer was in the meeting as well. And he introduced me to him. And he said, oh, I want you to meet - I said, no, actually, we know each other. He said, oh, I didn't know that. I said, yeah, no, I came to your house about eight years ago. And you wore silk pajamas and offered me a drink and rubbed my knee.
And I could tell that his producer felt incredibly uncomfortable. And he was kind of taken back - taken aback and just said - he kind of like moved on from the conversation like he just didn't want to address it, which to me became very clear in that moment that it wasn't his first time, that he had been doing this. And maybe, you know, I think maybe other women had called him out. And so his way of handling it was to just kind of like talk over it about the project.
And it was unfortunately not the moment that I so wanted. There was absolutely no reward in that moment for me. I've heard this repeatedly in hearing other women's stories. And that is the unfortunate thing about sexual harassment. You never get that moment where you feel like the tables are reversed and now he's finally getting it.
And the closest we've ever gotten to it is seeing people like Roger Ailes or Harvey Weinstein seeing some real consequences. I've never seen that in my entire career. This is really the first moment in my life where I see that maybe there can be real consequences for people with these actions.
GROSS: My guest is Charlize Theron. She stars as Megyn Kelly in the new film "Bombshell" about the women at Fox News who brought down Roger Ailes. After a break, Theron will tell us why she isn't naming the man who sexually harassed her early in her career. And we'll talk about growing up in South Africa during the apartheid era and about the violent incident in her family when she was a teenager just before she left South Africa. I'm Terry Gross, and this is FRESH AIR.
(SOUNDBITE OF RYAN KEBERLE AND CATHARSIS' "QUINTESSENCE (FOR IVAN LINS)")
GROSS: This is FRESH AIR. I'm Terry Gross. Let's get back to my interview with Charlize Theron. She stars in the new film "Bombshell" as Megyn Kelly. The new movie is about how Gretchen Carlson, Megyn Kelly and several other women at Fox News came forward about how they were sexually harassed by Roger Ailes, the CEO and chairman of Fox News, leading to his ouster. Nicole Kidman plays Gretchen Carlson, who led the way by suing Ailes. When we left off, we were talking about how Charlize Theron was sexually harassed by a film director when she went on her first audition for an acting role in 1994.
You are obviously still not divulging the name of the director, which I understand. But tell us, in your words, why you're not disclosing who it was.
THERON: So I actually did disclose his name.
GROSS: Oh. I didn't get it.
THERON: Yeah. You don't know that because every time I disclosed his name, the journalist made the decision to not write his name.
THERON: And it goes to show just how deeply systemic this problem is. I remember the first time somebody asked me about, like, if I ever had a casting couch experience, and I openly shared the experience and named him. And the person decided to not write his name. So the story is out, and when - strangely, when the Harvey Weinstein story broke, I, for the first time ever, Googled this story. And the story came up everywhere. It popped up everywhere, and nowhere could you find this guy's name.
And it was incredibly upsetting to me. And I'm conflicted in the sense that - I know that if I said his name again while I'm promoting this film that it would take over the importance of this story, and that would become the story. And I think there will be a time and a place where I will definitely share this. Again, the way I have always been honest about it - I have - I don't have a desire to protect him, but I also don't want him to overshadow this film right now. And so there will be a right time where I will talk about this again, and I will say his name. Yes.
GROSS: Understood - was that incident that you mentioned with a director the only time you faced sexual harassment in the movie industry, to the extent that you're comfortable talking about this?
THERON: Yes. I mean, I - what I love about this story of what happened at Fox - and also, I think now that we're hearing so, so many other stories through the Harvey Weinstein of it all - and I think the nuance of sexual harassment in this wide spectrum - that it lives in this gray area, that it's not black and white; it's not always physical assault; it's not always rape - that there's a psychological damage that happens for women in the everyday casualness of language, touch or threat of losing your job. Those things I've definitely encountered, but nothing physical. That first one was physical, but I've never experienced anything like that. But I have definitely found myself in meetings laughing really loud at some guy's joke to make him feel good and maybe having a feeling of, I might actually lose my job if I don't do what is kind of being dictated here.
And it is important for us to, if we're going to rectify this issue - to really understand that we have to look at all of the nuance of it - that sometimes, victims go back to the perpetrator; that there can be an email exchange that is really friendly; that we have to understand why victims behave this way or - because I think the outside opinion is if you do that, then obviously, there is no sexual harassment. And it's in the complications. This is complicated, messy stuff. We have to be able to get into the nuance of it until - if we're really going to get to the crux of the problem.
GROSS: You sound to me like you do not have an accent. You sound like you were born in America. You grew up in South Africa on a farm. Describe the farm for us.
THERON: Well, it's what we call in South Africa a smallholding. And so it was around, I think, 25, 30 acres. My parents bought the land because they had a road construction company, and they needed the land for all the machinery, all the graders and rollers. So we lived off the land, but we - it wasn't an agricultural farm, but we survived off that farm. I mean, I - my mom, once a year, would slaughter a cow, and we would fill four freezers with that meat. And that was what we lived off, and all of our vegetables and fruit came from what we grew on the land. And so I had that kind of earthy experience while my parents ran this business, this road construction business.
GROSS: Well, let me reintroduce you here. If you're just joining us, my guest is Charlize Theron. She stars in the new film "Bombshell" as Megyn Kelly. And she was just nominated for a Screen Actors Guild award as best actress, and congratulations on that.
THERON: Thank you so much.
GROSS: So let's take a short break here, and then we'll talk some more. This is FRESH AIR.
(SOUNDBITE OF THE COUNT BASIE ORCHESTRA'S "WINTER WONDERLAND")
GROSS: This is FRESH AIR, and if you're just joining us, my guest is Charlize Theron. She stars as Megyn Kelly in the new film "Bombshell," which is based on the story of how Gretchen Carlson sued Roger Ailes, the head of Fox News, for sexual harassment. And days later, Megyn Kelly and several other women from Fox News came forward about Ailes, and then he was forced out of Fox within a couple of weeks.
So you grew up during the apartheid era.
GROSS: Were you exposed to black people during that era? I mean, it was apartheid. I don't know if you even came in contact with people who weren't white.
THERON: So on our farm, all of the workers, everybody who worked in the company - and it was a pretty substantial company - all lived on the farm. So my whole childhood, I was raised with Xhosas and Zulus and South Sothos and all different cultures. Their children were raised with me on the property, and I considered them my family. I didn't really - you know, there was some isolation in the sense that we weren't really around in a lot of the big cities - that I really understood fully what was going on as a child, as a young child. The information that I really got about what was happening came from my parents. This was conversation that was always kind of whispered around. When you went to the neighbor's house, people were always talking about politics, about elections, about all of these issues. So I had that awareness.
But I, you know, I lived in an environment where that wasn't how my family treated any of those people. I got - you know, I slept with a lot of those families. They babysat for my mom. If they went out somewhere, I would stay with them. And so it was only until I was 12 that I - or 13 that I went to an art school in Johannesburg where I really got to witness firsthand absolutely the atrocities of apartheid.
GROSS: What were you taught about race in school?
THERON: History was leaning very much into our white history. The heroes of our story of our founding fathers were all white. And even though very much - like, I find in our culture, this climate that we're in right now with our polarizing political views in this country, it was very similar in South Africa. I had friends who had family whose father would be for apartheid. And once they found out that, you know, black people lived on our farm, wouldn't let me come over for a sleepover. And so there was the distinction in that not everybody was living this way, but that it was very much thought of as - people felt very strongly about it. And then other people didn't feel and thought that there was a reason to fight this.
You know, I always wonder what my life would have been like if I grew up in one of those families. If I was just an innocent child who was born into the family - like one of my friends, who believed that apartheid was the right way of life. I was just incredibly blessed that I was raised by, you know, especially my mother, who I was really kind of raised by a single parent. My father wasn't around that much, but by a mother who was just aghast by all of this.
I didn't really, truly understood, I think, what any of this really did to me as a young child until I was in my mid-30s and I went to therapy for the first time because of a relationship that was failing. And what I discovered while in therapy trying to save my relationship was that I had a lot of trauma from being a young child growing up in South Africa during the apartheid era.
GROSS: And can you tell us more about the trauma for you and what you figured out later about how you, as a white person, as an empowered person, were traumatized by apartheid?
THERON: It's a lot to reconcile with when you realize that you benefited under a administration, a nation, a country because you had the right skin color. I benefited. My life was more comfortable because of the suffering of a lot of people who just, by chance, were born in the wrong skin color. And that is a lot - that was a lot for me to carry. It still is. It is - I think it's something that I'll carry for the rest of my life.
GROSS: So this is another South Africa question. During the last years of apartheid, there was a cultural boycott. A lot of performers weren't going there. There were a lot of, like, recordings and books that weren't available, either because of the boycott against apartheid or because the government didn't allow it in - because they were afraid that, as all, you know, authoritarian governments are afraid that it will open people's minds and that will work against the authoritarian government.
GROSS: What were some of the things you did not have access to, either because of the boycott or because of the government?
THERON: I had never seen a live performance. Like, I'd never gone to see a rock concert or a musician play live until I was living in Europe. I was 16 when I went to my first concert. So, yeah, nobody really came to perform in South Africa when I was in my teenage years. I remember vividly a teacher sneaking us in into a room and showing us 20 minutes of Stanley Kubrick's - what's the movie? - "2001." And I remember I was 14 years old. And all of us, our minds were just blown. I mean, we had film, but it definitely - we didn't have access to everything.
And I remember that, for some weird reason, that film was something that everybody was talking about. And I have still, to this day, I don't know how this teacher got access to the 20 minutes that he shared with us. But I just remember in that moment - and then, obviously, later when I left and actually watched the full film - that depriving people from simple things like this - feeling inferior that there's somehow this danger that, you know, a film could, like, make you feel - and, by the way, that it could, yes. I do believe great art can change people. But it was just so - it was so sad.
GROSS: How old were you when you left, and why did you decide to leave then?
THERON: I left three weeks after I turned 16. I was - I won this modeling contest. And one of the prizes was a trip to Italy to - with a modeling contract. And my mom was just incredibly encouraging of me going. She felt like it was a great opportunity for not only, you know, the possibility of, you know, finding maybe something that would interest me or a life abroad or being able to, like, travel, even if it was just - I had never been on a plane. I had never seen anywhere.
We'd never traveled before. We drove, you know, to Durban in our car for six hours every holiday. So I think there was this moment that coincided with the political turmoil at the time. This was in '91. And she said, you should really take this opportunity. And that's why I left. I felt really bad.
My father had passed away just a few weeks earlier. And I didn't want to leave her alone. She was going through a lot. And she really kind of, like, pushed me out of the nest. And she said, you have to take this opportunity. She - it was an incredible selfless moment that she gave me as a mother, this opportunity.
GROSS: Let me reintroduce you here. If you're just joining us, my guest is Charlize Theron. She stars in the new film "Bombshell" as Megyn Kelly. We'll be right back. This is FRESH AIR.
(SOUNDBITE OF STEFON HARRIS' "UNTIL")
GROSS: This is FRESH AIR. And if you're just joining us, my guest is Charlize Theron. She stars as Megyn Kelly in the new film "Bombshell."
You mentioned your father passed away. This is a part of the story that I know you don't - I think you might not want to talk about. So I'll just mention what happened and you can tell me if you'd like to talk about it or if you'd prefer not to. Your father came home drunk one night and shot at you and your mother. She got her gun and shot and killed him. And that's how he died. I don't know if you're comfortable talking about that or not.
THERON: No - yeah. Yeah, listen. I am. I think a lot of my - just any reluctancy that anybody has ever heard is just that this is usually the headline that people walk away from. And I think what's frustrating is that the trauma around having an experience like that, of course, is quite surreal. And - but it's more the fact that, you know, my father was a very sick man. My father was an alcoholic all my life. I only knew him one way and that was as an alcoholic. And South Africa at that time was not necessarily a place where there was any - you didn't have access to any kind of support group where you could even acknowledge that this was a problem or go and find help.
Our culture at the time was very much thought of like, well, this is what men do. Men drink. And if you're a strong man and a good man, you drink a lot. And so there was - it was a pretty hopeless situation. Our family was just kind of stuck in it. And the day-to-day unpredictability of living with an addict is what is, I think, the thing that you sit with and have kind of embedded in your body for the rest of your life more than just this one event of, you know, what happened one night. I think there - our family was an incredibly unhealthy one. And all of it, I think, scarred us in a way.
And, of course, you know, I wish what happened that night would've never happened. It's unfortunately what happens when you don't get to the root of these issues. My father was so drunk that he shouldn't have been able to walk when he came into the house with a gun. And he shot through - my mom and I were in my bedroom leaning against the door because we thought he was going to try - he was trying to push through the door.
And so both of us were leaning against the door from the inside to have him not be able to push through. And he took a step back and just shot through the door three times. And neither one of those - none of those bullets ever hit us, which is just a miracle. But in self-defense, she ended the threat. And this is a story that I have, you know, shared with a lot of people.
And so I'm not - you know, I'm not ashamed to talk about it because I do think that the more we talk about these things, the more we realize we are not alone in any of it. I think, for me, it's just always been that the story really is about growing up with addicts, like, and what that does to a person.
GROSS: Did you think that you and/or your mother would die?
THERON: That night? Yes. No, I really believed that was it, yes. Yeah. And it was something that I've heard other people talk about this, too. I knew it. The fear and the threat was there before anything actually took place that would inform me - that there was a threat. I remember just hearing his car drive into the driveway. And I just knew something bad was going to happen. My body just knew.
GROSS: So what do you do after a shooting like that? Did you call the police?
THERON: I - your body goes into automatic in a strange way. I just remember my mom saying, you have to run to the neighbors. You have to run to the neighbors. And I was in my pajamas. I was barefoot. And I just remember I just ran in complete darkness. And I could hear my breath. I just remember my breath felt so amplified in my ears as my feet were hitting the dirt road as I was trying to get to the neighbor's house. But I think she wanted to get me out of the house. I think she was still - in that moment, she was just - she was doing - she was being a mother. And she was trying to get me out of the house. And, you know, I felt like I left her in the threat, that she was still in danger.
But the neighbors kept me at their house. And our neighbor and his son ran over, and they were with her. And I only came over - she came to get me about an hour later. And up until that point, I didn't know that he was dead. I had no idea that he was dead. And so it wasn't, you know, I think that was - you just kind of like find yourself in this continuous motion of shock.
GROSS: How do you mourn your father when your father tried to kill you and your mother? I mean, what is that mourning process like? Did you feel any grief?
THERON: You know, for me, it was a long one. My mom was incredibly strong because I - that's just kind of the - she just has a quality about her where she is - I feel like she knew that she had to be that for both of us. But she didn't deny me the room to mourn. And I remember one night we were staying with my aunt, and I was in the bath and she was just sitting with me on the side of the bath. And I started getting really emotional, but I didn't want to show her because I didn't want her to feel bad. And I just remember her saying to me, it's OK. It's OK.
And so, you know, I think we did what we had to do, and she allowed me to kind of grieve in a different way than she was grieving. And she - you know, I think for her, she was stuck in the consequences of that night for another three years of her life because there - you know, there was a lot of unfortunate things that happened after that that she was still in the middle of.
GROSS: Legal things or...
THERON: Yeah. Yeah. And...
GROSS: And I should mention, she was acquitted self - on self-defense, so.
THERON: Yes. Yeah. This was mostly the - my father's side of the family, who just - you know, just unfortunately, really unfairly went after her. And I have never since talked to any of those family members since that happened.
GROSS: I'm thinking about how strong your mother was that she - you know, because you just told her - she encouraged you to leave after you won the modeling competition and to go to Italy and to be abroad and maybe stay abroad. And considering what she was going through after that, that just seems like so strong of her and so protective of you and showing such love for you.
THERON: It's incredible. You know, now that I have my own two daughters and I - just even trying to wrap my head around that idea of what she did, with my own kids, it's tremendous what my mother did and the gift that she gave me. I've said this a million times - I would not be here today if it wasn't for her selfless decision to really push me out of that nest and say, go, you have to take advantage of this.
GROSS: Well, she prevented you from being the daughter of the woman who shot her father.
THERON: Yeah, I mean, she is very much...
GROSS: Because no one would know when you went to Italy. No one needed to know about that.
THERON: Nobody knew. Nobody knew for a really - I mean, nobody knew until somebody found the story. I, for years, just never shared the story with anybody.
GROSS: When did your mother move to the U.S.?
THERON: Well, she would always come and visit. But she's been living here full time for the last 14 years, 15 years.
GROSS: You're very close now?
THERON: Yeah, physically and emotionally (laughter). Yes, I mean, she lives, like, two minutes away from me. And she co-parents with me. She's a huge part of raising my girls. And, you know, it's - she is just a really cool person. If she wasn't my mother, I would still be this close to her. Like, I just think that she is so - like, she is like no one I have ever met in my entire life. She is a broad - she is a lover of life. She appreciates things on a level that is just so lovely to be around. You know, she wakes up every morning at 5:00 a.m. and she hikes for three miles with not only her dogs but my dogs and will send me every morning a photo of the sun coming up.
GROSS: (Laughter) That's so great. Yeah.
THERON: And that really sums up who my mom is.
GROSS: Well, Charlize Theron, I have to say, you have really led an eventful life. What a life.
THERON: I've been very fortunate, very fortunate.
GROSS: I want to thank you for sharing some of your life with us. And I congratulate you on your performance in "Bombshell" and your Screen Actors Guild nomination for best actress. Thank you so much for coming to our show.
THERON: Thank you so much for having me.
GROSS: Charlize Theron stars as Megyn Kelly in the new film "Bombshell." Tomorrow on FRESH AIR, my guest will be Julie Andrews. She has a new memoir about her Hollywood years, which began when she was brought to the Disney studios to play Mary Poppins. We'll also talk with her daughter, Emma Walton Hamilton, who co-wrote the memoir and was born a few months before Andrews began working on "Mary Poppins." They've co-written 32 books together, mostly children's books. I hope you'll join us.
FRESH AIR's executive producer is Danny Miller. Our technical director and engineer is Audrey Bentham. Our associate producer of digital media is Molly Seavy-Nesper. Roberta Shorrock directs the show. I'm Terry Gross. Transcript provided by NPR, Copyright NPR.